Teaching Musicality to tango dancers

bordertangoman

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
I would like others views on what has helped them; what they think would be helpful.

Do Tango dancers need to be taught musicality? I dont think blues dancers do. Once they understand the basic pulse they move to what they hear; so is the requirement for tango dancers a requirement because the music is culturally alien and unfamiliar. (Discuss)

Does having a music education a help or hindrance.

And on DB's favourite subject "jargon"; should we be learning music terminology or using an experiential approach; (eg "this bit of music sounds flowing to me")
 
I believe they should.

Maybe not at beginners level, but later when they are free from movement constraints yes.

When people dance to completely new songs, or when they dance to live orchestra musicality (listening) becomes very important.

Technical terms are always beneficial cause they ease the teaching.

Music education is helpful when it is adjusted to tango songs.
I started reading a book and listening examples:
All You Have to Do Is Listen:
Music from the Inside Out
By Rob Kapilow
Wiley
September, 2008
ISBN: 978-0-470-38544-9

It is about classical music, but a lot can be related with tango.

nice yt clip about musicality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRIPiqRnlkw
 
For me, I think there are many aspects of musicality, not limited to 1) Understanding the structure of the music and predicting what is coming up, 2) translating that into movement, 3) understanding the composers, the history, the orchestras.

Playing various instruments from an early age means that I find (1) easy although still always lots to learn. (2) harder and something I work at and hope I'm getting better at and (3) also harder.

I think most people have some inherent musicality, but I think it should also be taught from the start, even if at the earliest stages it is just familiarising beginners with different tango music.
 
I find it absoloutely excruciating when none musicians attempt to teach "musicality".
I have walked outside, screamed in the car park and reentered the class. A classic example was "the double time step is like the upstroke in guitar" shows ignorance of everything in that sentence. I just hope they don't sometimes play flamenco at that place.

If people are that worried about it, perhaps the tango community could start up recorder lessons. Even learning to play three blind mice would explain: time signatures, rhythm, phrasing, and if played in a round, canon.

I'm being serious here, recorders are a. very very cheap and b. very very easy.
 
It'd be great if musicality was taught, but I'm not convinced as to how much good it would do. So much of it seems to go in one ear and out the other, once people get to the point of being able to hear the beat. Musicality so often seems to translate to the idea of dancing to a beat other than the 1. I could scream. Especially when it's excused with the explanation of "dancing simply."

Aside from even the music, there's so much more that can be done with things. Changing the feel of your body, for a start.
 
Re: how to learn musicality

bordertangoman said:
help or hindrance
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Neither nor: brain and soul are (for me) different chanels. You have this musicality or you dont. But you can easily learn the structure, syntax, and the composition of a piece of music. Any learning is helpful, but the outcome for dancing is rather poor.

regards
OD
 
bordertangoman said:
I would like others views on what has helped them; what they think would be helpful.

Do Tango dancers need to be taught musicality?
Click to expand...
I think trying to do this for beginners is a mistake - at most, say "walk to the beat" or similar.

It's just another thing to learn and worry about, and frankly, I think it's not as important to keep to the beat in AT as it is in other dances such as WCS or salsa.

I reckon musicality is probably something to learn and develop at improvers or even intermediate level.

bordertangoman said:
Does having a music education a help or hindrance.
Click to expand...
A hindrance if you can't communicate your knowledge to others without using jargon. Talking about "beats", "notes", "phrases" etc. is very much not helpful to non-musicians.

Talking of jargon:
bordertangoman said:
And on DB's favourite subject "jargon"; should we be learning music terminology or using an experiential approach; (eg "this bit of music sounds flowing to me")
Click to expand...
Well, I'm not convinced "musicality" itself is a helpful term. I'd say "dancing to the music" is a better description.
 
Neither nor: brain and soul are (for me) different chanels. You have this musicality or you dont. But you can easily learn the structure, syntax, and the composition of a piece of music. Any learning is helpful, but the outcome for dancing is rather poor.

regards
ODI
Click to expand...
disagree. Plenty of people feel emotionally moved by music, which is IMO the start of musicality. It's learning ways to translate that emotion into expressive movement which people can struggle with. Learning can increase either the range of expressive movement, and/or can increase what people can hear in the music (and therefore increase what aspects they can be moved by).

It could be that AT music is not at first all that moving to people; it can be an acquired taste. But learning to feel, and to move to that feeling, is something that can be learned with any genre.
 
Peaches said:
disagree. Plenty of people feel emotionally moved by music, which is IMO the start of musicality. It's learning ways to translate that emotion into expressive movement which people can struggle with. Learning can increase either the range of expressive movement, and/or can increase what people can hear in the music (and therefore increase what aspects they can be moved by).

It could be that AT music is not at first all that moving to people; it can be an acquired taste. But learning to feel, and to move to that feeling, is something that can be learned with any genre.
Click to expand...
I agree. It is to some extent an acquired taste. Of course there were many tango songs I loved the first time I heard them, but at first, a lot of them did not move me. The more I listen to it, the more songs that I like (I'm still somewhat selective though). There are even some neo-tango songs I like (just not a lot of them).

There are several aspects to musicality. Of course the beat (or rhythm) is one aspect, but another is the mood, feeling, or the emotion that one gets from the song. This often dictates for me, the style of how I will dance, or at least how I will do do certain steps. I find that some followers like how I dance to one type of song, but might not like how I dance to a different type (or mood) of song.
 
I think it has to be taught but not everything at the same time. Learning to hear where the damn main beat is, before they learn to walk. Learning the syncopation not before they're ready to dance the syncopations. That is, way after they're comfortable with double-times. Learning the themes (adagio, fantasy) only when they have enough vocabulary to dance differently on an adagio and on a fantasy. And so on.
 
dchester said:
I agree. It is to some extent an acquired taste. Of course there were many tango songs I loved the first time I heard them, but at first, a lot of them did not move me. The more I listen to it, the more songs that I like (I'm still somewhat selective though). There are even some neo-tango songs I like (just not a lot of them).

There are several aspects to musicality. Of course the beat (or rhythm) is one aspect, but another is the mood, feeling, or the emotion that one gets from the song. This often dictates for me, the style of how I will dance, or at least how I will do do certain steps. I find that some followers like how I dance to one type of song, but might not like how I dance to a different type (or mood) of song.
Click to expand...

LOL. I HATED AT music when I was first learning. I mean, it was OK for about an hour, but after that I just wanted to listen to anything else. (And then I came home, and as a way of making the experience last longer I listened to almost nothing but the two tango CD's my teacher had made for me. And I got to like it, albeit I also got tired of those particular songs.)

In addition to the beats and rhythm, etc., and the emotions, there's also the sounds of the instruments to pay attention to. (And of course that feeds into the emotion of it.) This is where I become a fan of how my mom taught me to listen to (classical) music--with programmatic stuff. Peter and the Wolf and Carnival of the Animals are fantastic starting points. Start with Carnival...pick one of the pieces...and pay attention to what instruments the composer used, and how he used them, and why he used them. Listen to "Acquarium," and think about how the music is like standing and watching fish swimming smoothly and gracefully through water. Listen to "Kangourous," and think about how the composer used the instruments to paint a picture of how a kangaroo moves. It's all right there. Think about how you would move to music like that.

Move to Peter and the Wolf. Read the story of it, and read about the leitmotifs used and how each instrument represents a character. Then listen to the music, and try to pick out the instruments, and try to identify each leitmotif. Listen for the bassoon (the grandfather) and try to understand why that instrument would be associated with that character...or the bird with the flute...or the hunters with the percussion. Learn to hear all of those various instruments, and how they interact, and why they were chosen.

Then...go back and listen to AT music. Think about how you could move differently when the music is legato versus staccato. Think about the rhythms and counter-rhythms. Feel the shifts in energy, and the ebbs and flows. Feel how some pieces sound wistful, or angry, or romantic...and think about how you can move your body differently. This is all musicality--beyond beats and emotion--and it can all be taught.

(Other good programmatic pieces are The Sorcerer's Apprentice, Rodeo (by Copeland), and Pictures at an Exhibition.)
 
newbie said:
I think it has to be taught but not everything at the same time. Learning to hear where the damn main beat is, before they learn to walk. Learning the syncopation not before they're ready to dance the syncopations. That is, way after they're comfortable with double-times. Learning the themes (adagio, fantasy) only when they have enough vocabulary to dance differently on an adagio and on a fantasy. And so on.
Click to expand...
Oh, aye. Start with the beat. Please please please start with being able to find the beat. If nothing else, be able to find the beat! ;)

Just don't let people stop with that. :)
 
Peaches said:
LOL. I HATED AT music when I was first learning. I mean, it was OK for about an hour, but after that I just wanted to listen to anything else. (And then I came home, and as a way of making the experience last longer I listened to almost nothing but the two tango CD's my teacher had made for me. And I got to like it, albeit I also got tired of those particular songs.)

In addition to the beats and rhythm, etc., and the emotions, there's also the sounds of the instruments to pay attention to. (And of course that feeds into the emotion of it.) This is where I become a fan of how my mom taught me to listen to (classical) music--with programmatic stuff. Peter and the Wolf and Carnival of the Animals are fantastic starting points. Start with Carnival...pick one of the pieces...and pay attention to what instruments the composer used, and how he used them, and why he used them. Listen to "Acquarium," and think about how the music is like standing and watching fish swimming smoothly and gracefully through water. Listen to "Kangourous," and think about how the composer used the instruments to paint a picture of how a kangaroo moves. It's all right there. Think about how you would move to music like that.

Move to Peter and the Wolf. Read the story of it, and read about the leitmotifs used and how each instrument represents a character. Then listen to the music, and try to pick out the instruments, and try to identify each leitmotif. Listen for the bassoon (the grandfather) and try to understand why that instrument would be associated with that character...or the bird with the flute...or the hunters with the percussion. Learn to hear all of those various instruments, and how they interact, and why they were chosen.

Then...go back and listen to AT music. Think about how you could move differently when the music is legato versus staccato. Think about the rhythms and counter-rhythms. Feel the shifts in energy, and the ebbs and flows. Feel how some pieces sound wistful, or angry, or romantic...and think about how you can move your body differently. This is all musicality--beyond beats and emotion--and it can all be taught.

(Other good programmatic pieces are The Sorcerer's Apprentice, Rodeo (by Copeland), and Pictures at an Exhibition.)
Click to expand...

I like your thinking......and I would add the Evelyn Glennie lecture on feeling the music with your body.
 
bordertangoman said:
Do Tango dancers need to be taught musicality? I dont think blues dancers do. Once they understand the basic pulse they move to what they hear; so is the requirement for tango dancers a requirement because the music is culturally alien and unfamiliar.
Click to expand...

I think that some explanation of the structure of Tango music the very first time you are taught Tango is important. When I started learning I was never told that the bass (possibally the piano or bandonion) would make the beat. I was always wondering where the percussion was.

Some idea idea of what the main instruments in an orchestra would normally be expected to do would have been helpful to. And to stress everything that was taught should be done with the music I think is an absolute must. IMO the biggest difference between a proper Tango teacher and a pretend one is the way they introduce the music to their pupils.


Does having a music education a help or hindrance.
Click to expand...
Both.
It can be helpful if the person is able to apply that education to their dancing but in my experience that knowledge quite often gets in the way of their dancing.

And on DB's favourite subject "jargon"; should we be learning music terminology or using an experiential approach; (eg "this bit of music sounds flowing to me
Click to expand...

IMO opinion a mixture of the two is helpful. Some jargon I think is essentual. Understanding some basic terms such as beat/ rhythm, phrase, and some sort of basic count of the beat would be useful.
But as regards the mood of the music, is it happy/sad, summy/raining fast/slow, smooth,stuttered would be a good way of expressing this and over time where a person is interested they can then build up their own jargon vocabulary.
 
ant said:
I think that some explanation of the structure of Tango music the very first time you are taught Tango is important.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree. Beginners have so much to learn already, that throwing a set of rules about musical structure at them right at the start is just going to ask too much of them.

None of the beginner classes I've done have done this - OK, with the exception of Clive & Chris's, but I don't class them as beginner classes, they're "musicality" classes to me...

ant said:
Some idea idea of what the main instruments in an orchestra would normally be expected to do would have been helpful to.
Click to expand...
Not for beginners; it'd freak them out.

ant said:
And to stress everything that was taught should be done with the music I think is an absolute must.
Click to expand...
Agree.

ant said:
IMO the biggest difference between a proper Tango teacher and a pretend one is the way they introduce the music to their pupils.
Click to expand...
Caught out! :)
 
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