Why some women are not asked to dance

No.

And we see how well changing from the Imperial system to the Metric system has worked in the States. Probably more comparable than one person picking up and moving from one norm to another.

Quibble.
 
It wan't AT. It was CW. But it works the same way for me.

A Tale of Two Women
Tall, blond, nicely proportioned female danced West Coast Swing with one of the regulars. She looked good. She had great posture. She kept her feet under herself. And she always kept with the music.
As the evening wore on I don't think she ever turned down a dance.
But she did not look like she wanted to be there.
She was there. Dancing.

Woman with black hair. Nice, somewhat fuller figure.
She danced with guys who NEVER are in time with the music, and guys who sometimes are in time with the music.
She ALWAYS managed to stay in time.
She smiled at me a couple of times as she danced by.

Guess which of the two I asked to dance?
 
The redhead and her friend didn't seem to know the dances very well. But, I did have a conversion with them. Later, the redhead walked by and said, rather enigmatically, "I saw you out there." (I'm always surprised (which is stupid) when I hear that people were watching me while I dance, although I know it intellectually.)
You think I should have given her a go? (I didn't see either her or her friend dance with anyone.)
 
Steve Pastor said:
She danced with guys who NEVER are in time with the music, and guys who sometimes are in time with the music.
She ALWAYS managed to stay in time.
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Hmmm ... One of my challenges in following has been to focus on my partner rather than the music when my partner is off beat. I have reached the point where I can follow if he is dancing to a regular rhythm, but I still have trouble when it's completely random. At my current stage of learning, it's amusing to me, but I always have to retreat to DH for the next dance in order to recover.

One or two men who know me will ask me to count for them, but I try not to backlead unless requested.

So if you see me dancing off-time, please check to see whether I'm fighting or cooperating with my partner of the moment. I would hate to think a prospective partner would reject me because I'm working hard at following an imperfect leader ....

Other leaders ... what do you think? Would you rather dance with a follower who keeps the beat no matter what you do, or one who follows your rhythm? (This question assumes I really CAN keep the rhythm properly, not just my own internal version.;))
 
Zhena said:
Other leaders ... what do you think? Would you rather dance with a follower who keeps the beat no matter what you do, or one who follows your rhythm? (This question assumes I really CAN keep the rhythm properly, not just my own internal version.;))
Click to expand...

I will start by saying this: as the lead, timing is mine. If I choose to dance a bit ahead or behind the beat, I expect my partner to follow. One of the few things a partner can do to really hack me off is refuse to dance my time.

However, if I'm all over the place (and it happens occasionally :rolleyes:), I don't expect my partner to try to stay with me. I'd rather she keeps the beat, and eventually I'll catch back up. Admittedly, this is not easy, and if my partner stops because I've obviously lost the beat, I understand that.
 
cornutt said:
I will start by saying this: as the lead, timing is mine. If I choose to dance a bit ahead or behind the beat, I expect my partner to follow. One of the few things a partner can do to really hack me off is refuse to dance my time.

However, if I'm all over the place (and it happens occasionally :rolleyes:), I don't expect my partner to try to stay with me. I'd rather she keeps the beat, and eventually I'll catch back up. Admittedly, this is not easy, and if my partner stops because I've obviously lost the beat, I understand that.
Click to expand...
You do realize this is not the simplest thing in the world?;) I'm supposed to determine when you're consciously playing with the beat and when you're lost? Arrrrgh!

I want a hard-and-fast rule ... grumble, grumble ....

Let's hear from more leaders .... oh, and by the way, this isn't just an AT question, it's a general question ...
 
Zhena said:
You do realize this is not the simplest thing in the world?;) I'm supposed to determine when you're consciously playing with the beat and when you're lost? Arrrrgh!
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Yeah, gotta agree, that is kind of a frustrating expectation. I get that in lessons too. One minute i'm supposed to "follow, let him lead," then next minute, "You've got to help him out until he gets it." And I'm supposed to magically know which minute it currently is.:confused:
 
Zhena said:
You do realize this is not the simplest thing in the world?;) I'm supposed to determine when you're consciously playing with the beat and when you're lost? Arrrrgh!

I want a hard-and-fast rule ... grumble, grumble ....
...
Click to expand...

Here's my rule.. (for myself)

The leader sets the rhythm. If you don't like the way he interprets music (or, in many cases, ignores the music) don't dance with him again.

That said, I will be more patient with beginners who are struggling to find the beat while remembering anything they were taught and navigate all at the same time.
The leaders in this catagory are usually open to help.

That's why I think the FIRST thing that should be taught is the rhythm and how to find the beat in the music. That way, if they get to a crowded dance and suddenly can't remember (or do) the steps they learned, they can at least walk to the rhythm to keep moving.

But as we all know, STEPS are always the first thing many people got taught (arrrgg) And sometimes the ONLY thing that gets taught. Its always shocking to me to attend a class where a fancy step gets taught and see so many people not doing it to the music AT ALL, and the teachers say nothing. Maybe they think those leaders get to a milonga and suddenly listen to the music when doing the step outside of class because now they "know" the step. Nope. :rolleyes:

The leaders who aren't beginners that dance off beat fall into 2 catagories...

1) Those who dance off beat because they can't find the beat (or don't even bother to try), but they've learned a lot of fancy patterns and they do them willy nilly...

2) Those who are trying to make things a little more interesting by syncopating or purposefully delaying/advancing movement to the music.

I don't dance with the guys in category 1. They make me nuts. They usually think they're advanced because of all the steps they know and they get snippy (or maybe even corrective) if you can't follow them. As far as I'm concerned, they're still at lesson one because they haven't learned to do the most basic thing... dance to the music. Admittedly sometimes they can't... some people simply don't hear the beat.. a tanda of nebulous new agey neo-tango music with them is sometimes ok because I don't have to make so much effort to ignore the music.

And my feeling about catagory 2 is that you better be pretty damn good at it, and a good leader in every other aspect, if you are going to dance off the rhythm for effect. It is an advanced thing that should only come AFTER learning the other things you need to know about leading and are doing them well consistently.

Bottom line... if I have to ignore the music to follow you, you aren't good at it. If I learn something new about the music and hear it in a different or whole new way because of your interpretation, you're good at it. I choose to dance or not dance with you accordingly.
 
Zoopsia59 said:
Here's my rule.. (for myself)

The leader sets the rhythm. If you don't like the way he interprets music (or, in many cases, ignores the music) don't dance with him again.

...

That's why I think the FIRST thing that should be taught is the rhythm and how to find the beat in the music. That way, if they get to a crowded dance and suddenly can't remember (or do) the steps they learned, they can at least walk to the rhythm to keep moving.
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(With the caveat that I don't do AT and I understand the etiquette of accepting or refusing dances can be different in ballroom ...)

At this point I don't refuse dances with specific individuals, so I need to deal with the challenge.

I agree that teaching the rhythm is completely neglected by some teachers. I haven't experienced the problem very much because until recently DH and I were dancing mainly at a chain studio where the teachers help the students at least recognize if they are having a problem.

Now we're starting to dance at a large public place where many of the dancers have never had a private lesson. Because the evening starts with three separate classes in the same room, they never play music during the classes. Each teacher just counts out the beat to keep everyone in his/her own class together. Consequently, it appears some people have never even heard a teacher counting at the same time the music is playing. It's hard enough to learn to hear the rhythm with help, but just about impossible for some people when they DON'T have that hint.

Every individual is different, so we have to learn different things at different times. In order to be able to follow, I had to learn to pay more attention to my partner than to the music. When DH and started taking private lessons, we would dance to the rhythm of whatever music was playing, even if we were working on a different dance. Our teacher then took us into the back studio and closed the door, but if he turned off our music to work on a detail, we would dance to the music that leaked through from the big studio. In other words, NOT dancing to the beat is a hard-won skill for me.

So to refine my previous question .... let's see if I can frame this correctly ... my goal is to increase the number of dances I do with good leaders. I am willing to have a reasonable number less-than-ideal dances in order to encourage/develop new leaders, to spend a few minutes with a nice gentleman, or to indicate to better leaders that they might want to ask me for a dance.

Setting aside the question of whether I can/should "help" an inexperienced/clueless leader (because that's another can of worms) ... if I want to "look good" to a leader so that he/she will want to dance with me, is it better to follow what my current leader is doing, even if off-beat, or to stay on beat despite the leader?
 
Zhena said:
( if I want to "look good" to a leader so that he/she will want to dance with me, is it better to follow what my current leader is doing, even if off-beat, or to stay on beat despite the leader?
Click to expand...

I think the best way to look good is to make sure you do every move with polish and precision regardless of whether you can make it land on a beat. A truly good leader will realize that you have little choice but dance the rhythm you are led. So you are better off ignoring the music and dancing the leader's rhythm while maintaining your technique in every OTHER way, than trying to force the leader onto the beat. Doing the latter will make you look like you are fighting the leader and it will be hard for the observer to determine who is the problem, you or the leader.

If the leader is behind the beat, there's not much you can do. Trying to get on the beat will involve either pulling him or pulling away from him. If he is ahead of the beat, you can resist more to delay taking your step, but even that can be awkward (and few are ahead of the beat)

If he is totally ignoring the music and is all over the place, you have to just do your best to tune out the music. I find that so impossible myself unless it is a fairly amorphous piece (and I think thats why some of the neotango music is as popular as it is... rhythm is inconsequential), that I just avoid dancing with anyone who makes it nessesary.

Beginners that KNOW they are beginners are more open to you backleading and helping them (which can work) Anyone who is doing a lot of fancy moves and step patterns while ignoring the music is usually not going to be open to you trying to fix it. (at least in my experience)

Take advantage of every opportunity you have to be the one who sets the rhythm. A molinete led correctly involves the follower taking control while the leader is the axis around which you revolve. (of course a leader who doesn't know how to dance to the music is likely to lead them incorrectly and pull/push you) Also, those moves where the leader invites you to step over his leg/foot (and has to wait for you to do so) are a chance to get onto the beat or do something that uses the music.

A truly good leader will be able to guess based on all your other technique whether you are a good dancer stuck with a bad leader or a bad follower who is messing up the leader. So work hard on all the things you CAN control... your form, your posture, your collecting, your axis, how you use your free leg, how you step rather than when, etc, etc.... Anyone who doesn't recognize those things isn't really a great AT leader no matter what fancy moves you see him doing with other follows.

The simplest things tell the real story.
 
Zoopsia59 said:
I think the best way to look good is to make sure you do every move with polish and precision regardless of whether you can make it land on a beat. A truly good leader will realize that you have little choice but dance the rhythm you are led. So you are better off ignoring the music and dancing the leader's rhythm while maintaining your technique in every OTHER way, ....
Click to expand...

Are you my soulmate? :rolleyes:
 
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