Una pregunta para los Sabios.

Why would a Vals look great if all in crossed footed dance
and a Milonga (song) never!...in fact the Milonga will have
to be danced almost entirely in Parallel...??
...and the Tango (song) itself..various figures like
back cross, ochos atras and walk to the cross are
almost always crossed footed while synchopated, rhythmic
dancing during a tango are usually in Parallel..
I think that approaching the dances using this kind of
inquiry will clear up a lot of confusion and simplfy the
learning process.

Unless the leader is also doing ochos (double ochos, as some call it), you need to be in cross system for ochos.

As for Milonga, due to it being faster, many find it easier to just stay in parallel system, but there's no rule saying that you can't go into cross system in Milonga. Some people will even do ochos while dancing a milonga. But you're right, it's not as common.

My two cents

For me the cross system is absolutely essential for milonga - playing with my footwork is for me based on unlead weightshifts that put me in and out of parallel with my partner.

I like:
Cross system on her right side + lots of dissociation will keep the follower semi-ochoing while i only walk, and then i can throw in a few ochos, and then solve it into cross system on her right side, and then lead her in a relatively tight arc to the right and have her cross repeatedly while i cross with her.
Leading her into ochos while walking cross left, double time shift, cross right, doubletime shift, cross left, double time shift, cross right.
Being in the right cross system, and keep crossing behind while she walks, or doing step with the right foot, collect, step with the right foot while she walks (or ochos - that is much easier), switching in and out of the cross system continuously.

I actually think that i spend much more time in the cross system when i dance milonga than when i dance vals.

imho, and 5 cents, and all that...

Gssh

Agreed with Gssh. And remember that each dance is different. Tango is weighted in the middle, but danced low in the ankles. Vals is weighted in the middle but danced higher in the legs. Milonga is weighted from foot to foot and danced like tango. Some movements work better than others, in varying positions, depending upon the dance one is doing.

Angel HI said:

Agreed with Gssh. And remember that each dance is different. Tango is weighted in the middle, but danced low in the ankles. Vals is weighted in the middle but danced higher in the legs. Milonga is weighted from foot to foot and danced like tango. Some movements work better than others, in varying positions, depending upon the dance one is doing.

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What what what???

Could you, please, elaborate this a bit, Angel?

Peaches said:

Originally Posted by Angel HI
Agreed with Gssh. And remember that each dance is different. Tango is weighted in the middle, but danced low in the ankles. Vals is weighted in the middle but danced higher in the legs. Milonga is weighted from foot to foot and danced like tango. Some movements work better than others, in varying positions, depending upon the dance one is doing.

Click to expand...

What what what???

Could you, please, elaborate this a bit, Angel?

Click to expand...

Oh yes, please!

y'all might try these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERtHUL4NS5Y and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gVgTkmj378


I guess my understanding of all this (please correct me if I have misunderstood) is tango using the idea of emphasizing the middle of the step- creates a great deal of "groundedness" (pardon my term- that's the best I can think of) and a downward emphasis so your foot arrives on the beat, the body is still mid-weighted and arrives at the top (or end) of the pendulum by the upbeat so you will be passing through your collected position at that point and be moving to the next downbeat so you can land there on the next strong beat. (some of this also came from the Tango and Chaos guy's explaination and video's of walking).

Whereas, if in milonga, the empasis is foot to foot, then you are going more for body and foot arriving together on the beat, rather than the body being slightly behind, like in a rolling tango walk where you are weighted and emphasiszing the midpoint.

You can do that in tango too, you get a different dynamic effect when you do, but you wouldn't want to dance an entire song like that.

^ Brava! Most excellent, Bas! Of course, this is not the total package, but the essence of the idea. Since you didn't mention Vals...b/c the feet are more placed in vals than the other 2, a higher leg action is required. Basic stuff...you guys know this.

Angel HI said:

^ Brava! Most excellent, Bas! Of course, this is not the total package, but the essence of the idea. Since you didn't mention Vals...b/c the feet are more placed in vals than the other 2, a higher leg action is required. Basic stuff...you guys know this.

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Well - it feels nice to not be barking up the wrong tree!

Still trying to understand the vals part. I've had lessons on allthe others, but not specifically in vals technique...basic yet unbasic....I call this stuff nit picky (yet important) details...or basics for more advanced dancers....

Maybe we do it wrong here in the US, but going in to that much detail for beginners usually causes brain explosions and ends up with them quitting the dance. Most beginner classes seem to be more about just getting the basic idea and some vocabulary to get out dancing, then revisitin all this later...which is how I also learned it.

Mostly I put it together from your explaination, combined with explainations from other teachers, combined with other things I have found (Like that Oscar Casas info and the Tango Chaos stuff)...finally got most of the pieces in the puzzle.

I don't want to create a "style war" but I have noticed that people who tend to dance "Nuevo" style tend to dance more on top of the beat (foot to foot) versus more traditional dancing where the emphasis if foot/body (the middle of the step). Probably a topic for another thread...

Hmmmm...and back to the mental drawing board I go... :?

I don't know that I've ever thought of the difference in movement as related to the type of dance this way.

I've always thought of dancing tango from my lower back. Not that that makes much sense, I know, but that's how I tend to think about the feel of tango, which feels horizontal and driving. A lot of traditional milongas I feel in my ankles and knees. Vals I just think of as softness and suppleness.

And then there are modern/electronic/alternative milongas which I love, because they each sound and feel so different, and each one feels like it comes from a different place in my body. That's when I feel like I get to throw out the rules and bring hips into the picture and let momentum flow from one part of my body to another. This, to me, is when I feel connected very high up in my torso, and just feel looseness and flowingness below, with all the movement originating from that center/connection. Otros Aires's Dos, "Junto a las Piedras" is my current favorite. It just feels so...pendular...to me. It's like I can envision and feel the energy flowing downward, gathering momentum, then back up and slowing...then stopping...then reversing...and then sliding downward again and gathering more momentum. I'm sure that doesn't make damn bit of sense.

I'll have to rethink things in terms of on the beat, on top of the beat, in the beat...feet and ankles, higher in the legs... Oy. If it's not tearing down one way of thinking and feeling about things, it's another.

(Ahhh, tango!!!)

Peaches said:

Hmmmm...and back to the mental drawing board I go... :?

I don't know that I've ever thought of the difference in movement as related to the type of dance this way.

I've always thought of dancing tango from my lower back. Not that that makes much sense, I know, but that's how I tend to think about the feel of tango, which feels horizontal and driving. A lot of traditional milongas I feel in my ankles and knees. Vals I just think of as softness and suppleness.

And then there are modern/electronic/alternative milongas which I love, because they each sound and feel so different, and each one feels like it comes from a different place in my body. That's when I feel like I get to throw out the rules and bring hips into the picture and let momentum flow from one part of my body to another. This, to me, is when I feel connected very high up in my torso, and just feel looseness and flowingness below, with all the movement originating from that center/connection. Otros Aires's Dos, "Junto a las Piedras" is my current favorite. It just feels so...pendular...to me. It's like I can envision and feel the energy flowing downward, gathering momentum, then back up and slowing...then stopping...then reversing...and then sliding downward again and gathering more momentum. I'm sure that doesn't make damn bit of sense.

I'll have to rethink things in terms of on the beat, on top of the beat, in the beat...feet and ankles, higher in the legs... Oy. If it's not tearing down one way of thinking and feeling about things, it's another.

(Ahhh, tango!!!)

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well- I started noticing it after I had been looking at some videos of Chicho and other dancers who dance in that style recently...and came to the conclusion that it must be stylistically correct or fashionable to land on more on top of the beat for a sharper look, because the dancing looks quite sharp, not the rolling look of a midweighted step. Just check out the current video of Chicho up in the video section of the forum and compare it to something more "traditional" in terms of styling. I wouldn't personally know if this is true as I haven't had much in the way of "Nuevo" training.

That being said I think Angel's excersize he gave earlier in this thread of trying to walk mid-point to midpoint is really good and this weekend we had a dynamics class that emphasized the other (accenting the whole body and foot landing together on the beat- come to think of it the workshop was almost all "Nuevo" oriented so I am not surprised).

I've even come to enjoy going back and rethinking things to some degree, like I did over the weekend at a festival...where someone I have kown for years and years said to me......"The Beginners just want to go to Intermediate, the Intermediates just want to go to Advaned, and the Advanced people say *I need to go back to beginners and start all over again!*"

bastet said:

I don't want to create a "style war" but I have noticed that people who tend to dance "Nuevo" style tend to dance more on top of the beat (foot to foot) versus more traditional dancing where the emphasis if foot/body (the middle of the step). Probably a topic for another thread...

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Correct. Nuevo: American Silver Foxtrot in Argentina...(tango style).

bastet said:

I've even come to enjoy going back and rethinking things to some degree, like I did over the weekend at a festival...where someone I have kown for years and years said to me......"The Beginners just want to go to Intermediate, the Intermediates just want to go to Advaned, and the Advanced people say *I need to go back to beginners and start all over again!*"

Click to expand...

I'd just like to make it *out* of the beginner realm eventually. Just once. I don't mind going back to basics, but can't I at least play at being more advanced now and again???

I'm sure that you are (I can tell from your posts). :wink: