"The Dinzel System"?

Dave Bailey said:
OK, so basically it sounds like it's a "big list of steps" approach - which makes sense given that some of the other links are to a notation system they've apparently developed (you don't need a notation system if you're only teaching 4 steps :) )

But, I still don't know where this "active partner thing" comes from? And what it means? (And yes, of course I understand what "active following" means, but they aren't talking about that)


Hmmm.... from that article:


Well, it's not what you'd call a detailed explanation is it?
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Indeed.

This is what I find more troubling:


 [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Q: Where do you teach now? [/FONT]

 [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Rodolfo:At the University of Tango. Gloria is the Artistic Director and I direct the curriculum with the Dinzel method at Agrelo 3231. We have 900 students full time and 900 part time. The students receive a certificate as a teacher of Tango and one of our goals is that Tango be taught in all the schools in Buenos Aires. I am currently working on an agreement with the Ministry of Education to have Tango in all the public schools as part of the curriculum .... then the private schools will follow.[/FONT]

Having watched some video (YouTube again) theirs is not a style I'd subscribe to. And the thought of 1800 pupils all being taught that way is a bit troubling. I suppose their justification and purpose is the laudable one of introducing as many young people as possible to Tango.

At first sight they do seem to be at the flashily decorated, move/step based end of Tango. Perhaps Jantango might chip in and enlighten as to how they actually do fit into the Buenos Aires tango scene. It's impossible to tell from here.
 
opendoor said:
Found, that Dinzels are still rather popular in the queer tango scene. Pure chance? There must be something special in in their system for european or north american leaders.

For argentine dancers counts: there is no need for equal rights in tango dancing, for argentine leaders usually hang up their machismo for that moment, and try to develope, and present the woman on the dancefloor, whereas european men start leading like driving a car. So it makes sense to tell women/followers their opportunities and areas.
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driving a car!!!?? rubbish the woman is a surrogate air guitar!
 
So, Dinzel's way is 1850's tango...
From what I found in a book published in BsAs long ago (before the tango rebirth of the 1980s), there has been a time in tango (pre)history where the dance was between men, and not as a substitute or training for dancing with a woman, and not either as a mock knife duel, nor queer tango. Just a game to show what they can do with their feet. Something more like what the Macana brothers are doing.
 
Dave Bailey said:
To be honest, I didn't know there was tango in 1850. I'm clearly an ignorant person. :(
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JohnEm said:
There was a sort of Tango (apparently) but it wasn't tango as we know it.

And Tango in the early 20th century wasn't as we know it either.
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To briefly follow up on these posts.

The latest Tango Voice post is coincidentally about the history of Tango, especially in the 19th century. From that description Candombe was the dance with the evolving Milonga being influenced by it.

It's vague (well silent) about the history of Canyenge prior to its recognised appearance in the outskirts of BsAs around the turn of the 20th century and I've no idea who is writing Tango Voice and its authority although it quotes references.

Assuming TangoVoice is right perhaps the Dinzels meant the 1950s tango is what they teach not 1850s. It would make more sense to be teaching tango of the Golden Age though such a fundamental mistake on their website (if it's a mistake) somewhat knocks their credibility.

Teaching steps and moves doesn't sound like tango of the Golden Age. Nor did Tango of this era seem to have accommodated the active participation of the lady in the way they apparently espouse. Perhaps that's their own modification.

Some more light is needed!
 
newbie said:
...in tango (pre)history where the dance was between men, and not as a substitute or training for dancing with a woman...
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I´ve heard that before, but I think it´s a legend started by travellers. Approximately 2/3 of an iceberg isn´t seen. So what the travellers did see, were some peaks above the water line. In an rather catholic country it was almost impossible that single men and women would dance or touch each other in the public.
 
Sistema Dinzel de Notácion Coreograficá

opendoor said:
...or the underground map of London
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Bingo: just found this graphic file

dinzel2.jpg
 
opendoor said:
I´ve heard that before, but I think it´s a legend started by travellers.
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Absurdamente, es una pareja de varones la primera que se aviene a bailar el tango, en alguna esquina. El tango parecia solamente cosa de hombres. Indignaria atribuir al acto el mas minimo contenido homosexual. Se trata de una demostracion de habilidad, de un lucimiento.

Leon Benaros, la historia del tango, BsAs 1977
 
JohnEm said:
Indeed.

This is what I find more troubling:


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Q: Where do you teach now? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Rodolfo:At the University of Tango. Gloria is the Artistic Director and I direct the curriculum with the Dinzel method at Agrelo 3231. We have 900 students full time and 900 part time. The students receive a certificate as a teacher of Tango and one of our goals is that Tango be taught in all the schools in Buenos Aires. I am currently working on an agreement with the Ministry of Education to have Tango in all the public schools as part of the curriculum .... then the private schools will follow.[/FONT]

Having watched some video (YouTube again) theirs is not a style I'd subscribe to. And the thought of 1800 pupils all being taught that way is a bit troubling. I suppose their justification and purpose is the laudable one of introducing as many young people as possible to Tango.

At first sight they do seem to be at the flashily decorated, move/step based end of Tango. Perhaps Jantango might chip in and enlighten as to how they actually do fit into the Buenos Aires tango scene. It's impossible to tell from here.
Click to expand...


Los Dinzel NEVER set foot in a milonga, obviously because they are too busy with teaching. I have footage of Rodolfo in the Konex Center when he was asked to present a class to a large group of children from a very poor neighborhood after a concert at Teatro cervantes. He demonstrated the eight-step basic a couple of times and then left the room. His assistants took over. He didn't ask them to walk around the room. He got them totally confused from the start with memorizing a pattern. This is what Los Dinzel do at the University of Tango (evening classes at a grammar school) where anyone can get a certificate to teach after two years in the free program. Maria Plazaola attended his classes, but she doesn't do anything she learned there. The problem with their method is that it isn't useful for social dancing, only performance tango. Their plan is troubling to me as well --to take over the entire school system with their method of tango.

I have viewed their dancing on YouTube as well. They are invited to teach all over the world because they are famous for being in the cast of Tango Argentino many years ago.

Fit in to the scene in BsAs? They run their foundation school in Villa Crespo http://www.english.fundaciontango.org.ar/objectives.htm where all the classes are free, as they are at the University of Tango. They ask for donations and volunteers. They are members of the Asociacion de Maestros, Coreografos y Bailarines de Tango Argentino (the elite and closed network of teachers) who control how tango is danced and judged in the city and world campeonatos. They do not advertise in any of the magazines nor show their faces in the milongas. I would hardly say they fit in but rather are the silent old guard that runs the tango machine in BsAs.

An Argentine friend in BsAs was attending classes at the U of Tango ten years ago. He told me how impressed he was with Dinzel. I was surprised to hear him say that because my friend was the dancer who introduced me to chest-to-chest embrace at La Viruta. At one of the lectures by Dinzel, my friend asked a question -- What do you think about the milonguero style of tango? Dinzel answered, It is new and won't be around for long. I never forgot this because it proved that Dinzel has not been to the milongas. If he went to dance, he would know that the milongueros have been dancing the same way since the 1950s in the downtown confiterias.

It is scary that there are people with world-wide recognition who have such limited knowledge of the subject in which they are considered experts.
 
I will apologize now for the long post. Rudolfo and Gloria were 2 of my first 4 primary teachers in the early '80s. It was he who gave me the nickname El Criollo (which was given as a great compliment, though I never use it). Here are my thoughts.

Dave Bailey said:
Anyone heard of this? I'd be interested to know how this works, and if anyone's got experience of it?
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JohnEm said:
It's slightly amusing to see them claim that they are teaching how tango was danced in the 1850s. How do they know? People still dispute and discuss whether there was any african influence on the dance.

I'm sure they are well-intentioned, indeed an interview I found seems to confirm that. But they do seem to have a show tango background . . .
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Quite the contrary. He has a very traditional background; very CE; and, always taught very basic movement/lead/follow. He refused to teach me something different. After Tango Argentino, he continued to tell me that what they did in the show was not what we should be doing in the milongas. Even then, he refused to show me the show stuff, saying that it was not real tango.
Gssh said:
....but what happens is that the "leader" asks for a move, and the "follower" then leads it. The archetypical experience is the close embrace giro where the follower powers and controls the whole move, and then you just keep this kind of "the follower moves the couple and the leader feels that energy and does stuff with it" thing up. ....it requires very precise leading, and the leader having a direct feeling of were her feet exactly are, and how much weight she has on them, and how she hears the music and what timing her next step is going to be on.

Gssh
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IMHO, this is exactly what he meant because it is exactly what he taught.

Lui said:
Here in Germany “pedagogic” has god an extended meaning. Despite it’s Greek roots, it is used in the sense of „based on a thorough, good working teaching system“.
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Thank you for clearing that up.

jantango said:
Los Dinzel NEVER set foot in a milonga,

He demonstrated the eight-step basic a couple of times and then left the room. His assistants took over. He didn't ask them to walk around the room. The problem with their method is that it isn't useful for social dancing, only performance tango.
I would hardly say they fit in but rather are the silent old guard that runs the tango machine in BsAs.
Click to expand...
I must speak with them which, I admit, I have not in a long while. Your post is not the Rudy Dinzel of the '80s when I studied. If he has changed, it would be interesting to know why.

I will agree that teaching very little, then sitting back and letting others follow through while he watches and corrects from a corner seemed to be his growingl MO. However, to say that he/they could not fit in to the tango scene today is very confusing knowing what I know of them.

jantango said:
An Argentine friend in BsAs was attending classes at the U of Tango ten years ago. He told me how impressed he was with Dinzel. I was surprised to hear him say that because my friend was the dancer who introduced me to chest-to-chest embrace at La Viruta.
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This is what I have been saying. This is the Dinzel whom I know.

jantango said:
It is scary that there are people with world-wide recognition who have such limited knowledge of the subject in which they are considered experts.
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FTR, the Dinzels have extensive knowledge of the subject... much more than many of those here.
 
Re:

Angel HI said:
..It was he who gave me the nickname..
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Thanks Angel, that made it clear! A teacher will notice his student!

And, in resonance to a former thread (I will not respond on the question of leading and didactics), teachers are kind of lighthouses along the way. And what really counts is the ability to guide and to give impulses for the next step. And this relies on the patience, and of course on the character (or better personality ? sorry my english is so crude) of that particular person.

wr
 
Angel HI said:
I will apologize now for the long post. Rudolfo and Gloria were 2 of my first 4 primary teachers in the early '80s.

He has a very traditional background; very CE; and, always taught very basic movement/lead/follow. He refused to teach me something different. After Tango Argentino, he continued to tell me that what they did in the show was not what we should be doing in the milongas. Even then, he refused to show me the show stuff, saying that it was not real tango.
Click to expand...
Thanks AngelHi for the personal experience.


Angel HI said:
I must speak with them which, I admit, I have not in a long while. Your post is not the Rudy Dinzel of the '80s when I studied. If he has changed, it would be interesting to know why.

I will agree that teaching very little, then sitting back and letting others follow through while he watches and corrects from a corner seemed to be his growingl MO. However, to say that he/they could not fit in to the tango scene today is very confusing knowing what I know of them.
Click to expand...

Twenty to thirty years is a long time in anyone's life and people change. He/they have obviously sought and developed a methodology exemplified by their maps for leaders and followers.
Diagrams often aren't very helpful but confusing even overwhelm with the possibilities.

Maybe they just aren't teaching now in the they taught you nor what they taught you. It doesn't seem so to me but that's a distant observation from far away.


Angel HI said:
FTR, the Dinzels have extensive knowledge of the subject... much more than many of those here.
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That's a bit unfair. The problem here is that people with the sort of in depth knowledge that the Dinzels and others have just aren't sharing it with us. But that's another topic altogether.
 
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