Compromising tandas

aha no, not the ones where you discover that your dress has moved...

I want to know what people think about adjusting their dance to each partner.

everyone has their own little foibles, no one is perfect, people have different styles and are different shapes.

Do any "teachers" point out in their classes that if someone thing always goes wrong with a particular partner, perhaps you shouldn't do it?

It sounds like common sense, but I really hate it when if I can't do something, even though it has already gone horribly wrong, some leaders will keep doing it in the vain hope that i might suddenly up my level of competence in the next 5 minutes.

Often it's me that's the problem, but equally often, the leader has the problem, so why not take responsibility for making it a nice dance and say "ok, my partner can't do this so I won't lead it" it doesn't even need one person to take the blame for the screw up, think of it as "adjusting down" to their level.

Also I've realised that the sentiment "it's always the leaders fault" seems to have disappeared. If you are going to say that the leader is in control and the follower should lie back and think of England, you have to be prepared to also take responsibility for both of your enjoyment of the dance and pay more attention to the needs and abilities of your partner.

jfm said:

Do any "teachers" point out in their classes that if someone thing always goes wrong with a particular partner, perhaps you shouldn't do it?

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Not explicitly - or not like that. I was talking about the embrace yesterday (on a side note, it's amazing how few classes there are where the close embrace is actually described, why is that?), and I talked about the need for adjustment due to relative body sizes and shapes. I also did some role-reversal work, and thats a good way to demonstrate the need for adjustments.

But I didn't really talk about the need to adjust your "style" - I may cover that one next week.

jfm said:

It sounds like common sense, but I really hate it when if I can't do something, even though it has already gone horribly wrong, some leaders will keep doing it in the vain hope that i might suddenly up my level of competence in the next 5 minutes.

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Yeah, but that's not "different style", that's "poor leading".

jfm said:

Often it's me that's the problem, but equally often, the leader has the problem, so why not take responsibility for making it a nice dance and say "ok, my partner can't do this so I won't lead it" it doesn't even need one person to take the blame for the screw up, think of it as "adjusting down" to their level.

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Any competent leader will do this, automatically. If your partner doesn't do this, your partner is not a competent leader.

jfm said:

Also I've realised that the sentiment "it's always the leaders fault" seems to have disappeared.

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It's not always the leader's fault. But it's always the leader's responsibility.

David you are forgetting that most leaders are poor leaders. Simply stating that they are bad and by extension "don't dance with them" does not help people who dance with them because otherwise they would not dance at all.

Always the leader's fault isn't literal. It's the general sense that if you lead something and it doesn't work a. you lead it wrong or b. you shouldn't have lead it in the first place because it's beyond your partners capabilities.

I think the point here is how to raise awareness or make it the default that as a new couple meets on the floor they will both adjust to their partner. It doesn't matter how "bad" a dancer you are, in your head you will think "it's not working she must be a beginner i'll make it more simple". Most bad dancer don't know that they are bad, but they do know that all the women the dance with bar a few teachers if they are lucky are very very bad and can't follow.


I like "always the leaders fault" it goes back to the traditional sense that you are being looked after in the dance and you don't need to worry about what's behind you.

There is too much of this tango for showing off around. So many leaders in london are not dancing with their partners, they are dancing with themselves and they need a woman as a prop. If making your partner feel safe and enjoying the dance together is less important than showing what you can do, it seems a bit empty. And not caring about your partner goes back to deciding "it's always the leaders fault" is 'unfair'.

spectator said:

David you are forgetting that most leaders are poor leaders. Simply stating that they are bad and by extension "don't dance with them"does not help people who dance with them because otherwise they would not dance at all.

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I didn't say "don't dance with them". I just meant to say that this is not a case of "adjusting style", of compromising between two equally-valid interpretations. It's a case where one partner is doing it wrong.

So in that case, I'd say that the follower should not try to do it "halfway-wrong", she should do it right.

spectator said:

I like "always the leaders fault" it goes back to the traditional sense that you are being looked after in the dance and you don't need to worry about what's behind you.

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Yes. The "it's always the leader's fault" mantra is a good, simple, rule-of-thumb, at least for beginners.

i really think it would do well for 'not' beginners to use it as well.

jfm said:

It sounds like common sense, but I really hate it when if I can't do something, even though it has already gone horribly wrong, some leaders will keep doing it in the vain hope that i might suddenly up my level of competence in the next 5 minutes.

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Or worse, starts to teach/explain to you how to do it. Grrrrrrr!

LittleLight said:

Or worse, starts to teach/explain to you how to do it. Grrrrrrr!

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I always say, rather pointedly, "You lead it and I'll follow it." That usually shuts them up.

Unless they are raw recruits / total incompetents who are talking me through the complex move they've just "learnt", assuming I'm a complete beginner because I have patiently followed them through their dreadful timing / weird body positioning / precarious balance / vague lead rather than backleading them into something approximately correct. Then I just smile patronisingly and say nowt.

Madahlia said:

I always say, rather pointedly, "You lead it and I'll follow it." That usually shuts them up.

Unless they are raw recruits / total incompetents who are talking me through the complex move they've just "learnt", assuming I'm a complete beginner because I have patiently followed them through their dreadful timing / weird body positioning / precarious balance / vague lead rather than backleading them into something approximately correct. Then I just smile patronisingly and say nowt.

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I've had that; they were short of leaders in a class and I arrived early for a milonga and this nice Irish lady spent ages explaining to me what to do..she found out later that i teach and I just grinned at her because it was amusing..

bordertangoman said:

I've had that; they were short of leaders in a class and I arrived early for a milonga and this nice Irish lady spent ages explaining to me what to do..she found out later that i teach and I just grinned at her because it was amusing..

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Heh - same thing happened to me a couple of weeks ago. I asked a guy "Are you leading a sacada there?" watching him working on a step, and he explained that, no, it was actually a gancho, and he then explained what a gancho step was like. I didn't have the heart to explain that I only asked because he was leading it so poorly.

(Guess what the class was on yesterday? )

spectator said:

i really think it would do well for 'not' beginners to use it as well.

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Like all things, it gets a bit more complex when you get into it.

For example, with some partners, and at some levels, there's this "active following" stuff, where the follower has more input into the dance than normal. In those situations, obviously, the follower also assumes more responsibility for things going wrong.

I thought that a consensus that "active following" (which seems a little different to my interpretation of it and hence I don't do it anyway) is a bad thing and we shouldn't be doing it had been reached?

I can't think of a single time dancing with a very good dancer where I have screwed up. This isn't because I am a fantastic dancer, it's because they have worked out my ability and they are dancing down to it.

jfm said:

I want to know what people think about adjusting their dance to each partner.

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I've danced with pros (Carolina, Lorena) and I've been positively unable to adjust my level. On the other hand I'm happy that they did not adjust their level to mine, this would have meant doing mistakes, losing their balance, missing the beat and so on.

spectator said:

I thought that a consensus that "active following" (which seems a little different to my interpretation of it and hence I don't do it anyway) is a bad thing and we shouldn't be doing it had been reached?

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Depends what you mean by "active following", I guess.

It is possible to have a "share the lead" dance. I know, because I tried this out on Friday with a fellow leader, and we achieved it. I also did it in a class at Mango last year - although only once out of maybe 8-9 partners. Again, that only worked with an experienced leader.

It's far from easy, and based on my limited experience, I'd venture to say that it only works with someone who's had some experience as a leader, and - frankly - someone who's at least at "intermediate" level generally, waffly designation though that is.

But, there's "active following" which is much less demanding than that, which involves the follower suggesting some interpretations, and taking advantage of "play" opportunities provided by the leader.

jfm said:

I want to know what people think about adjusting their dance to each partner.

everyone has their own little foibles, no one is perfect, people have different styles and are different shapes.

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Isnt this common sense? I'm interested though in what exactly "adjusting" ones level means. Isnt it more about slowing ones dance down and being a little more obvious with the lead? Anyone who's not an idiot will know not to lead a triple-volcada-with-toeloop on a beginner. You would think

jfm said:

Do any "teachers" point out in their classes that if someone thing always goes wrong with a particular partner, perhaps you shouldn't do it?

It sounds like common sense, but I really hate it when if I can't do something, even though it has already gone horribly wrong, some leaders will keep doing it in the vain hope that i might suddenly up my level of competence in the next 5 minutes.

Click to expand...

Arent the leaders simply assuming its their fault? That they havent been clear enough in their lead? I doubt its a matter of your competence. Well unless they are the idiots I mentioned above

jfm said:

Also I've realised that the sentiment "it's always the leaders fault" seems to have disappeared. If you are going to say that the leader is in control and the follower should lie back and think of England, you have to be prepared to also take responsibility for both of your enjoyment of the dance and pay more attention to the needs and abilities of your partner.

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have you been dancing recently in London then? (sits back and waits for the flying missile)

jfm said:

aha no, not the ones where you discover that your dress has moved...

I want to know what people think about adjusting their dance to each partner.

everyone has their own little foibles, no one is perfect, people have different styles and are different shapes.

Do any "teachers" point out in their classes that if someone thing always goes wrong with a particular partner, perhaps you shouldn't do it?

It sounds like common sense, but I really hate it when if I can't do something, even though it has already gone horribly wrong, some leaders will keep doing it in the vain hope that i might suddenly up my level of competence in the next 5 minutes.

Often it's me that's the problem, but equally often, the leader has the problem, so why not take responsibility for making it a nice dance and say "ok, my partner can't do this so I won't lead it" it doesn't even need one person to take the blame for the screw up, think of it as "adjusting down" to their level.

Also I've realised that the sentiment "it's always the leaders fault" seems to have disappeared. If you are going to say that the leader is in control and the follower should lie back and think of England, you have to be prepared to also take responsibility for both of your enjoyment of the dance and pay more attention to the needs and abilities of your partner.

Click to expand...

This is how I handle the above stated predicament: "Dialing in..." --> Click Here