Tango Argentino > Been Diss'ed?

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by AndaBien, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. raindance

    raindance Well-Known Member

    Use the report button (a little link at the bottom of each post) on that post to ask moderators to remove it.
     
  2. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    I guess it was a joke or sarcasm. No one ever comments on a lady's body parts, that would be considered highly inappropriate. Maximum a man may say about appearance is to compliment her outfit/new hairdo/sense of style in general. In Buenos Aires some may say "you have beautiful eyes", but even that is already a bit eh... old fashioned. :) Mostly people compliment your dancing, knowledge of the music or how well you speak the language.
     
  3. rain_dog

    rain_dog Active Member

    Hopefully this is sarcasm, but if not, I'd get banned for saying what I really want to say.
     
    Lilly_of_the_valley likes this.
  4. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    It would be actually interesting to discuss sexual harassment in the milongas. In almost 10 years in Buenos Aires milongas I have not experienced or witnessed even any remotely disrespectful behavior toward women, let alone harassment. At times someone tried to get dances from women coming to their table and insisting, which behavior would be promptly apprehended by organizers. That was the extend of it.
    That said, harassment in milongas probably does exist. No one is perfect, and where is trust and exposure, there may also be abuse. If Oliver could give an example or two of such stories women shared with him, and which milongas did it happen at?
     
  5. itwillhappen

    itwillhappen Active Member

    In a debriefing after a festival I got knowledge of three complaints about one teacher from Southern Europe. But that was more or less about his macho attitude and not about individual sexual comments or offerings. I'm quite sure that he was not aware of this situation and quite sure that he would not really bother about that.

    I got reported some situations from my SO where she felt uncomfortable about the embrace and e.g. ganchos, some guys try to exploit the situation, not very surprising. And she gets offers for "more than tango", of course, but again not explicit sexual comments till now.
    And she was dancing with a dork, telling her that he's a taxi dancer and got so attracted that he dances for free only this time. :D


    P.S.: And what is Tango Therapist talking about here?
    http://tango-therapist.blogspot.de/2011/09/tango-vultures.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
  6. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    For what purpose?
     
  7. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    So is coming up to someone's table to insist on a dance, to the point of being removed by an organizer NOT disrespectful or harassment in your opinion?
     
  8. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    It was disrespectful of the milonga codigos, but this kind of behavior was mostly from people who were outsiders, and did not know/misunderstood the rules. Once reprimanded and informed of the rules by the organizer, they did not repeat that kind of behavior.
    Same, I would not call harassment someone proposing something I am not interested in, be it a dance, a cup of coffee, a ride in the car or anything else. Once I say "no", those offers/advances are not repeated, my wishes are respected ---> it is not a harassment.
     
  9. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    You said they were "insisting" to the point where organizers had to step in. The definition of insisting is not to accept a "no" ("demand something forcefully, not accepting refusal")
     
  10. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    I want to know what exactly do you mean by harassment in milongas, and which milonga organizers allow women's harassment in their establishment.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
  11. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    The point is that it was dealt with by the organisers and was rather rare.

    I think you were misreading Lily.

    Of course she did encounter some examples of inappropriate behaviour, since otherwise her statement would have been internally inconsistent even within one paragraph. I have yet to encounter one social setting where everyone is constantly on their most saintly behaviour (and that includes time spent at a Cistercian abbey).

    I think she meant that she never encountered disrespectful behaviour that was either prevalent or condoned.

    In other words: she was asking why her experiences did not match your statement:

    Not only did you specifically claim "lots of" incidents, the tone of the rest of the message was also indicating that it was condoned badly enough for women not to be able to coax the organisers to deal with it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
    Lilly_of_the_valley likes this.
  12. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    It never affected anyone in any significant way. You are talking about harassment that made women change their behavior, the way they dressed, where they go, etc. Yes, if such things happened regularly in a certain milonga, I would stop going there. But there were only rare isolated accidents, and such behavior was nipped in the bud every time.
     
  13. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Also, I remembered there was an incident in a milonga in Club Fulgor circa 2010. A woman got sexually harassed by one of the goers, and complained about it out loud. It provoked quite a brawl.
     
  14. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    Earlier you falsely claimed that I changed the subject from milongas to street harassment.

    Now you're inserting words into both Lily_of_the_valley's and my posts.

    This is dishonest behavior.
     
  15. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    Things like: pressing their erections into followers (there's a long thread on this forum about this very subject), wandering hands, sexual invitations of subtle and explicit varieties.

    Most of this was not reported to organizers because the recipient didn't want to make a scene, or they were worried they wouldn't be believed or supported.
     
  16. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Clarification to my post #105: I have not experienced or witnessed disrespectful behavior toward women in the milongas beyond of what I describe in said post. Hope it is clear now. :)
     
  17. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    And the brawl when someone spoke up.
     
  18. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your reply. I can see how that kind of things could have happened and passed unnoticed by anyone else.
    I still wonder... surely, if such things happen often and were of insistent nature, women would not keep coming back happily to the milonga and/or continue dancing with those guys who did it?
     
  19. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    The perpetrator got punished. One would think after that more women would come forward in such situations, but I have not heard of anything like that ever since.
    I understand how such things may happen occasionally, but to be of a constant, repetitive and deliberate nature... I just don't see how it could be perpetuated. Sooner or later others would take notice?
     
  20. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    Some women quit tango, or change milongas, or stop dancing with anyone they don't already know, or otherwise modify their behavior as a result of the harassment.

    A woman came forward on page 3 of this thread about street harassment and received dismissive replies, including from the Moderator, Steve Pastor.

    In fact, this thread is full of dishonest, ignorant, dismissive, victim-blaming statements including some of yours.

    Not only that, but you mention a brawl when someone spoke up. No wonder women are afraid to speak up!

    Sooner or later. The really good predators are good at keeping it subtle, maintaining plausible deniability, making friends with all the right people, and getting defended by people like you who are in denial and insist that it's not a big deal because it doesn't personally affect you.
     

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