Discussion in 'Salsa' started by brujo, Jan 6, 2004.
This is what I said; focus on the bold parts :
Elvis has left the building.
You snipped out this part:
the best compliment is that she wants to dance another tanda with me. the proof is in the pudding.
Can I get an "amen" to this
stop it! Now I can never go to NYC again in case I disappoint!
I recognize this behaviour too... :roll:
I told you before and you got mad at me...but...some things are just the way they are.
Just like in a sentence nouns, verbs, and adjectives have syntactic roles as nouns, predicates, attributes, complements/objects, in the same way clauses have roles in larger text structure, and not only that but they are tied together in a coordinate/subordinate fashion. This mechanism builds that sense of meaning. If you perform some semantic analysis on the fragment I wrote you will notice that the sentence you think I missed has completely different meanings when taking it separately then if you take it as a part of a larger text structure. And if you look carefully it starts with the conjunction but. Well that is not there for the show. It's there because it implies something. It implies that if some conditions do not apply (ie. are doing something wrong or they just plainly suck) then the rest of the sentence (ie. "in 5 or 6 years getting good by any standards of good is a given") is true in the authors opinion. So my dear noobster, you can't take the sentence out of context and claim I said whatever it means in those circumstances.
You know some of the names of the terms I used might not be perfectly accurate with regards to the standard nomenclature since English is really my third language and I skipped those years in highschool when they were teaching this due to reasons of mostly having been there and having done that. But I'm sure you can get the point. And after all this bragging that really makes me feel good about myself, I'm going to fix up my hair in a very Ken fashion and go to my salsa classes where I'm going to act like a superstar and hook up with Barbie. :twisted:
I think it's to be expected because the reasoning behind that is since salsa is not a compulsory activity you got into it by choice. Since you got into it by choice you must like it. And if you like it it's logical that you want to get good at it. And since you want to get good and 5 years gives you a lot of time to work towards that goal it is expected that you've made good progess: ie. you got GOOD.
So yeah, all that stuff about how much work you had to put in it, and all the pain you went through to get there is just baby talk. You didn't expect all that to come without effort. You did what you had to do to get there. And people know and expect that.
So simply the 5 year communicates you had enough time to work on it, if you're still not there you either don't want it enough or you have some limitations beyond your control. That's why to people being good after 5 years is not mind blowing.
I certainly expect it.
Well in that case I'm gonna tell them 18 months, since I've been stagnating ever since then
I agree... If I see a great dancer and find out they have danced 5 or more years, I'm not surprised. I RESPECT their accompliments, but not surprised. Anybody who decides can be way above-average/elite in most fields in 5 years.
I used to be totally wowed by this guy who had been dancing for 8 years. I wasn't sure I could every dance at that level. Now I see it's a matter of time and I can be as strong IF I'm willing to match his effort levels. A few people will do more in 4 or 5 years than some longer term dancers. It's not magic, it's focus and effort. Some people will get where he is in less time, depending on where they start.
I respect people who are constant improvers, even if I'm no longer wowed by the results. Few people stick with anything long term and many get to a point where they don't advance too much but rather refine what they already know. (Nothing wrong with that...)
Although they may be great, they aren't challenging themselves to be better in this area. They now may be learning hip-hop, or tango, or rounding out their dancing in other ways, and they are "good-enough" in the salsa area to be comfortable.
compliments are nice .. but generally abused.. i prefer criticism
Exactly! This is what promotes the myth that getting good at something is some sort of a big deal. It just requires determination. This trait is what makes the difference between people who have demonstrated a pattern of achievement and those who don't seem to go anywhere, It's the capacity of pursuing actively a long term goal.
I don't know, I just don't agree. I have seen people at so many different levels (however you want to phrase them) after the same amount of time spent dancing.
It is so very dependent on the time/effort you put into it, your personality as a learner, your native talent, the scene you find yourself in, etc etc etc.
You could go dancing once every week or two for five years, without really paying much attention to your progress, and not improve much at all. I know some people (mostly Latinos, not part of the crazy on2 scene around here) who just salsa as a social event, not to improve, who are like this - they aren't 'better' now than they were five years ago, and lots of them probably wouldn't even understand the concept or point of 'better,' because to them it is just a fun social activity, not some kind of goal or contest.
Doubtless this will offend some people so I'm going to don my flame-retardant suit now, but I notice it especially with out-of-towners. I'll dance with somebody new, then we'll maybe have a chat and I'll find out he's been dancing for 4 years or something - and I am totally surprised, would have guessed maybe 1 year or less. Also they often seem to think that certain locals have been dancing way longer than they really have. I think being in a high-demand scene both helps you to improve as well as 'forcing' you to improve faster, and to keep improving. Not to say that you can't be a great dancer if you live in a small scene - but I think you probably have to work a lot harder at it as the improvement won't come find you, you have to go find it.
And like I said, there are definitely people (who *are* present in the on2 scene, so obviously just being here is not a magic bullet) who have been dancing regularly for years and years who are still terrible.
If someone is a great dancer, IMHO
a) that fact stands by itself regardless of how long it took for him to get there - quality is quality; and
b) anyway he must have put a significant amount of thought and work into it - no matter how long you've been dancing, you won't improve if you don't *try* to, and I think the effort deserves kudos as well.
I just think it's kind of silly to diminish someone's accomplishment based on the amount of time it took him to achieve it. If anything it is *more* admirable for someone to have stuck with this for five years rather than having it be a fad like it is for most people (and doubtless will be for me since I have the attention span of a gnat).
I totally agree it is also a tribute for someone to stick with something. That said, I am NOT impressed if someone has some great moves after X years, even though I respect them for getting to that point.
If a guy takes 10 years to master a stylish CBL, I respect him for sticking with it, but I'm not really impressed. Dancing is like most other skills, if I dance better than you, I probably have practiced more AND/OR I did something requiring similar body control in the past (gymnastics, cheerleading, aerobics, swing dancing).
I have to say I always am respectful of someone accomplishing and being in the game. Even the worst dancer on the floor has my respect if he/she is out there doing it and I'm watching. It's easy for me to be a critic. I respect those in the game.
I think a lot of people are not 'bottom line' kind of people, probably because that would subject them to harsher self-scrutiny, but in the end, it's all about the bottom line. Do you have results? If you don't nothing matters.
So mastering a stylish cross-body lead in 10 years may not be as impressive as mastering that very same XBL in 1 month, however when it comes to seeing dancers getting their groove on nobody is going to reason:
X is a better dancer but has been dancing for 10 years.
Y is almost as good but has only been dancing for 5 years.
Therefore Y is a better dancer. People will still say X is a better dancer, because it's all about the bottom line.
It's what you are that matters not what road you took to get there or the time spent during the journey.
It's always about the results.
I agree that there is more than one way to look at things. I'm not going to beat myself up for not spinning or dancing like Luis Vasquez. (Although I'm working on it...) I will probably never have his bottom line results since he started 15 years before me and he still dances more in most weeks than I do in a month.
There is a certain amount of time required to mature in any art, some do it in less time than others do, but you are right, the bottom line matters in many cases.
In the process of growing as a dancer, I'm not going to compare my bottom-line results to someone with 5 years additional experience UNTIL I'm in the game a few years. It takes time to build a foundation.
We have all been impressed by someone our first year dancing and then two years later we find they have not improved and we are about to pass them. (People reading these forums are often more serious than the average club dancer.)
My bottom line is being sure I'm better next week than I was this week. I can't control the others so I work on my foundation. I wish them the best and focus my energy on improving myself and others who share the passion. And fortunately for me, my income isn't dependent on how well I dance this week (or I would be very hungry).
I need to go practice now! My bottom line is way too low at this point.
Here are some great compliments to use. Feel free to use them. (I've certainly never received them, but that's just me.)
1) Thank you for dancing with me because there's this creepy guy in the back of the room that's been stalking me. Even though I said I like girls he keeps following me and writing weird notes on napkins and such. But when we were dancing, out of the corner of my eye, I noticed he was watching us, and for a moment, just one moment, he had a kind of twinkle in his eye. Like he was thinking, wow, those two really do look good together, or something. I mean, sure, that guy is pretty messed up, but I think, in a small way, we put a smile on his face.
2) Tomorrow I am going to Paraguay to join a cult of Jewish deli monks to live in peaceful solitude, eating nothing but pickled herring and saying nothing other than to complain about the weather. I have given you the honor of my last dance. But ask yourself--have you truly lived up to that honor?
3) Thank you, that was pretty good. I have to admit, I wasn't expecting much from you, but you managed to pull through. I know it can be intimidating dancing with me, especially with your weight situation, but aside from the occasional snafu, you held yourself together. Really, give yourself a pat on the back. The hardest part is hearing the rhythm, but there were long portions of the song when you were actually stepping in time. And don't worry about your turns--I think the floor is a little sticky. Of all the dancers in this room, you're definitely one of the most improved.
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