Tango Argentino > Tango Priorities…#1: Embellishments..! ;)

Discussion in 'Tango Argentino' started by Chrisa Assis, Mar 31, 2017.

  1. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    It would be appropriate and most welcome if it were indeed an idea or two, a question put to discussion, and a fair exchange of opinions, and not a whole series of a$$ long lectures.
  2. sixela

    sixela Well-Known Member

    Yes. I find the discussion of training on embellishments as something helping you to validate that you have the basics nailed down interesting, but if the first post is simply positing it all as a revelation of the gospel, it will tend to attract a lot of flak.

    Which is not a problem in se, but if you want others to take a less combative stance, a more open ended first post (I think X, others think Y. What do you think?) often works better.
  3. itwillhappen

    itwillhappen Active Member

    Is anyone interested in my opinion about the codigos of posting here? If so, feel free to send me a personal message.
    In real life also I wouldn't shout out my opinion about the codigos of tango across the whole room...
  4. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    I have an idea. Why don't interested people establish a separate thread called, for example, "Tango tutorials" where self appointed teacher would submit lectures, dissertations, lesson plans, instructive videos, and such? And sheep shall be fed, and the wolves kept safe. :) Problem solved.
  5. raindance

    raindance Well-Known Member

    This. Also - the forum has an ignore button. If you've read enough of the OP's posts to know that you don't want to see anymore from them (or any other member), you can use that. Or you can open a thread, think "wow, that's way too long, I don't feel like reading that" and move onto another thread. As long as the moderators are OK with what is being posted, I fail to see why it is a problem that some people post things you (you = those complaining) don't feel like reading?

    Personally, I don't even dance AT, but I find some of the AT threads interesting. I've enjoyed Chrisa's writing much more than some of the arguing that happens here from time to time.

    2 more cents from the peanut gallery.

    Chrisa, don't let the critics get you down, I hope you keep posting here!
    Oliver likes this.
  6. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    That is why: I actually like Chrisa, and like her other posts, comments, and replies. I would prefer not to recourse to blocking.
    Same with the whole forum. If it keeps going the way it does, I will just have to go read and discuss about AT elsewhere.
    You are probably right, though, about just deciding and doing all that without saying a thing here. No one cares.
    My bad.
  7. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    I don't see why a combative stance is called for whether or not someone posts an essay about tango vs. starts a discussion with a couple questions.
  8. itwillhappen

    itwillhappen Active Member

    In the morning I shave my face balancing on one leg, brush my teeth on a wobble board, do some pivots in front of the coffee machine, watch a video exercise in the commuter train.

    All this would be totally exaggerated if I want only eat, drink, chat and dance a bit at a milonga. For that I only need to be a tough guy and eat, drink, chat and dance a bit more often. But it's my decision and my SO likes the benefits.

    If one does a regular training and proceeds, the difficulty of the exercises should get adjusted. So when training balanced steps and pivots, doing some kind of embellishments is a nearby method. Last billiard session my friend balanced a cue on the free leg. I will give that a try, too.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
  9. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    Copy-pasting old content targeted for gullible pupils, and posting are two different things. Even if Geraldine was doing that with some page of her (hypothetically speaking) tango school website, it would still be basically an ad.
  10. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    She did start a separate thread. Would the title have really changed anything?

    I will concede that her post wasn't for everyone, (at least not for me, anyways), but it is possible for people to disagree without being disagreeable, or just not post in the thread (which until now, I hadn't).
    Oliver likes this.
  11. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    The idea would be to post and gather all the tutorial/lecture - like posts in one thread, and not open a separate thread for each single one of them, as she has done so far. Just a suggestion.
  12. newbie

    newbie Well-Known Member

    Or the moderators may move the vid into the appropriate section. Ad section, tutorial section, tango fail/fun section, asking for criticism section. C. Assis very possibly believes to be posting instructionnal vids.
  13. opendoor

    opendoor Well-Known Member

    But it still exists, Lilly: the admins should only change its name to Dance Articles, Blogs and Tutorials
  14. itwillhappen

    itwillhappen Active Member

    But are there enough profound certified tango teacher in this forum / on earth that it's worth to exclude them from writing there? And what with these that only have a limited profile, e.g. got assessed for Tango Milonguero but not for Tango Nuevo? ;)
  15. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    It has nothing to do with expertise and credentials (or lack thereof). They may very well be sufficient in the eyes of some, including myself. This is not what questioned here.
    "Self appointed" means "unsolicited".
    itwillhappen likes this.
  16. Lilly_of_the_valley

    Lilly_of_the_valley Well-Known Member

    If you propose to turn this thread into it, I have no objections. Although, perhaps, the first one would be more suitable, as it does not contain lateral discussions.
  17. Oliver

    Oliver Member

    Request: can you all please start a new thread to debate the policies and direction of the forum? The topic of this thread is embellishments. It would be helpful to keep the separate, unsolicited debate in its own thread with its own title.
    dchester and raindance like this.
  18. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    Maybe we should go old school and create a Tango code: TS M+ C+++ N+ F S BA150 M1k
    (...this takes me back - usenet was not so long ago, wasn't it?)

    The discussion about what style of content we here are looking for is interesting. I did not consciously reflect on this before, but to some extent i agree that Chrisas post does not quite fit with what a discussion forum is about - and in fact we have a whole separate forum for "dance articles", where this would probably fit better.

    I was familiar with her work because i have followed her writing since it showed up on /r/tango, and and i have sometimes thought that i would want to discuss the themes and questions, but am not a particular fan of the reddit structure, specifically because reddit is designed as a portal/web content aggregator, and discussions there are set up to be about the web content.

    So for example here i think both discussing solo training, and embellishments, and what my views are on both of these, and learning what everybody else thinks about those topics is interesting. Discussing what i think about specifically article in the OP is not (at least for me), especially as i am pretty sure that it is just a slice of what Chrisa thinks about these topics, and written for a specific purpose in a specific context (it is a follow up to posts discussing finding teachers, how to practice, and part of a series on solo practice in general and so on, and so on), and that context is somewhat lost here.

    I am a big fan of a lot of the ideas implied - practicing attributes, being concious about what attributes are being practiced, not confusing practice with dancing. I tend to think that it is useful to throw in practicing musicality while doing solo exercises, so i am not a big fan of the music she uses in the background - not because it is not tango music, but because i think that a big part of solo practice is to be able to hone ones connection to the music without having a partner to worry about (el pulpo once said that he practices his tango to rock music - i guess that that contributed to languid his tango was - when he danced to tango music he felt that he had lots of time for anything)
    (Detour: Having one song on repeat during a practice session has been really useful for me - after a while i get so bored with it that i start to look for more subtle musical patterns to play with - i sometimes think practicas should repeat one song for half an hour or so, and then switch to another one - it would be much better for practicing than the pseudo milonga structure)

    I feel that if this thread had started with somebody liking the OP, and saying something like "i have been thinking about what i am doing in solo practice, and up to now i did a lot of work on balance and walking, and stayed away from practicing embellishments because they seem to be somewhat self indulgent, but this article puts forward some interesting points - i.e. that practicing embellishments is a way to practice basic attributes in a less boring way", we would not have this discussion, and instead would be actually talking about the content of the article, not the article.

    Basically, this is a discussion forum, and not a web portal - and i think as long as we keep this in mind all kinds of posts and contents can be good starting points.
  19. Gssh

    Gssh Well-Known Member

    I think this is the core question here - what debate did the try OP solicit? "So what do you think now, are embellishments a waste of time?" or "is spending time on embellishments in solo practice a good use of time compared to spending time on basic technique?" or "if you had talked with my student would you have given them different advice?" - what is the debate we are having?


    1) no - embellishments are as much part of tango as anything else, and like all other elements if used "properly" are not a waste of time. What using them "properly" means will vary between people, but as long as we are conscious that they are the frosting, not the cake it should be fine.

    2) no - solo practice is in my opinion best used for basic technique. the closer we get to something we want to directly use in our dance the more difficult it becomes to practice by oneself, as the dance happens with two people working together (and also interfering with each other movement). An embellishment has to be robust to what my partner does, and either cannot interfere with my partner, or if it interferes with my partner it has to do so in a way that makes my partner feel stable and secure. Both of these things cannot be explored when practicing solo

    3) yes. I think the solo training everybody should start with is musicality. I rotate sets of tango, vals, milonga that i play whenever i am driving and i work on singing along with them (driving because somehow singing/humming badly is less embarassing while driving). Musicality is the base of communication between leaders and followers, and especially as the student wanted to be more in the dance being more in the music is a key for that. And then all solo practice of basic technique should be done to music - it sets the pace, it allows us to experiment with movement in the music, with switching melody lines and so on. (and we might suddenly find that when we do basic technique in the music it looks awfully similar to embellishments)
  20. dchester

    dchester Moderator Staff Member

    To my esteemed colleagues (above): I haven't heard a reason yet (that makes sense to me), for why there can't be a separate thread for individual topics. Embellishments is a legitimate topic for discussion, IMO.

    The OP copied from her blog post to start the thread, and that seems to have caused some angst, (maybe some people didn't like the content, or didn't like that it came from someone new to the forum).

    In any case, I don't feel they should be limited to a single thread. People can ignore her posts, whether it's in a single thread or if each thread is topic specific. If we get a lot more of these type of threads, I would be willing to look into a sub-forum solution (no promises about it getting implemented, though).

    I just don't get the angst over it, though.
    Oliver, rain_dog and raindance like this.

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